Dialogue

[Deejay]

I've thought a lot about what made the Dizzy games work, and what would need updating in a modern version.

What do you peeps think about plot/dialogue? Really the games were never that heavy on dialogue, and the plots were always pretty basic.

Do you think the games would have more or less charm with a more complicated plot, like in a modern RPG? Would excessive talking and storyline get in the way of the puzzle-solving?

Should puzzles be based around a character's motivations and their dialogue, rather than their predicament? Pretty much all of the puzzles are of the form "I need this item" or "Help, I'm frozen and I need defrosting", rather than asking the player to figure out what's going on in the character's head.

[Lex_Hedley]

I think the simplicity of dizzy is what made it great, I started playing it with my bros at a very young age and I think it would put ppl off if there was too much dialog or if it was really important to figuring out the puzzles, that said it all depends on the age bracket and the length of the game.
If you were expecting it then that wud be fine

[Mataeus]

Although I'm utterly in love with the classic Dizzy games and many of the DizzyAGE ones too, your idea sounds intriguing. I do get fed up of having to rescue Daisy all the time, so games like Lost Temple Dizzy are a nice break - in fact, that's been one of my favourite fan games, very close to the top of my list.
The Yolkfolk have a mysterious illness, and you have to save them, but you feel like you're going on the quest because Dizzy loves his family and it does give a certain sense of threat. Also, the character dialogue in that particular game is expanded a little, such as at certain points when you return to talk to people they'll say different things and eventually get taken down by the illness.
Also, you can do things like look through telescopes and Dizzy will explain what he's seeing in the distance which makes the world feel a little bigger and more coherent, and those tiny almost unnoticeable things such as that really make you feel more part of the character and in his head, on his adventure. They are such small things to do in a Dizzy game, but they enhance the feeling of playing massively.
It's a change only in the simplest terms and nothing like as advanced as what you are suggesting, but it's still a change that makes you feel for the characters and their safety a lot more than in the average Dizzy game, where everything is very light and cheery and you know that, as long as you solve the puzzles and don't get killed, Daisy is never in any real danger and Dizzy just wades through it smiling like a goon. With the little additions mentioned above, you feel more as though he actually cares and could be in a bit of danger.
My favourite thing about this particular example though? It all starts with Dizzy unpacking a picnic and Daisy not being there so Dizzy goes to look for her ;)
And on a final note, we do have two very dark (and very different, gameplay wise) Dizzy games here (http://dizzystories.110mb.com/gamedetail.php?game=7) and here (http://dizzystories.110mb.com/gamedetail.php?game=11) - Both of which explore character depth more than the average Dizzy game (although, like Lost Temple in a relatively simple 'Dizzy' way) and have more of an RPG feel to them.

:dizzy_smile::dizzy_smile::dizzy_smile:

[Dizzy9]

When it comes to puzzles I think that Crystal Kingdom is best example.
They won't tell you directly what they want,but it's easy to figure out(Like Dora,or CJ)
When it comes to plot...I have a very big story for game,but i don't think that I can do them alone.It includes few new characters,and all of them have also a medium size back story.And yes,I want a dizzy game with big,touching story,no like "help your friends and finish game"but also more complicated one.;)

[Deejay]

When it comes to puzzles I think that Crystal Kingdom is best example.
They won't tell you directly what they want,but it's easy to figure out(Like Dora,or CJ)
When it comes to plot...I have a very big story for game,but i don't think that I can do them alone.It includes few new characters,and all of them have also a medium size back story.And yes,I want a dizzy game with big,touching story,no like "help your friends and finish game"but also more complicated one.;)

Hmm, I might have to revisit Crystal Kingdom to take a look. At the time I couldn't stand it - the notion of separate levels and the change in jumping mechanic put me right off.

[frogandhat]

I agree with Mateus.
A bit of dialogue helps carry the story line and some intelligently used 'extra' dialogue can help with the atmosphere, and give further clues without actually being necessarily integral to the plot. But then it would be easy to over egg the pudding (sorry..:dizzy_rolleyes:) as too much dialogue could slow down the game and be quite tedious on replays. After all, these are 'arcade adventures' not text adventures.
Having said that, the bit on some fan games that I dislike the most is the unskippable 'start movie'. Yes it sets the scene nicely, but I dont want to watch it again, I want to get straight back into playing the game.
Plots do not have to be complicated at all, after all these are puzzle solving games, so the plot only needs to give Dizzy (or Daisy, eh Grandad!) one problem which he needs to solve, the rest of the plot revolving around clues to the sub problems you have to solve to accomplish the goal.

[delta]

hmmm what to say that others haven't already?

I guess I try to make dialogue descriptive. It's the little things that matter I think, giving each character a reason for wanting something, or sometimes just giving the smallest hint as to what they want. It makes the player think more, so the puzzle is more satisfying when they solve it.

Adding detail to conversations is good too, and helps to give the game a good atmosphere. If a story is fleshed out, then the player feels more a part of it, and is more likely to want to play it. Maybe adding dialogue where it isn't needed, such as the 'points only' puzzles in MSD. Humour is good too, and can give the impression that they really are conversing, rather than reading from a script.

Even just things like item descriptions can help - 'a rusty old key' is more atmospheric than 'a key', similarly, 'a sodden towel' is better than 'a wet towel'. More atmospheric, see? item descriptions are food for the players imagination. Of course you can go overboard - 'a large heavy rusting silver key' is just overkill. The trick is to be descriptive and concise at the same time. The same goes for dialogue. Concise but not stilted.

I generally try to capture the 'feel' of the original games, where the dialogue was quite jolly, even slightly mocking sometimes. However I do love the dialogue I came up with in MSD when Dizzy hits the Golf ball at Grand Dizzy :laugh: even if I do say so myself! It's a bit risque, but I think it's funny.

That's just my 2c anyway :)

[DizzyFanUK]

...
In a modern version, I wonder if dialogue could be incorporated in a more responsive AI? I suppose the possibilities are endless nowadays? It's also adds an extra dimension to a game like in TLOD where Dizzy (sorry... Dexter) actually talks - which is a little more engaging.

I also think in RPG games - it's essential for interaction with other characters/shopkeepers etc to enable progress. There's some obvious Dizzy inspirations from MMORPG 's ie quest solving, item using and character interaction. I think we've already seen some influence like that, here in DizzyAge with games where multiple characters are playable etc.

I'm not sure about dialogue in long spells or overloaded intro/cut sequences - but modern xbox type games have fairly lengthy dialogue-heavy movie-style scenes between levels which are used to reward completion and are becoming more popular - maybe a future Dizzy game might test that concept?

During the DizzyAge games - I enjoy dialogue when it adds to the plot, injects some humour or just lets you know where you are or what to look out for. For me the rule is, if it's not adding anything, there's no point to it (unless you like your sadistic red herrings). Also, I do appreciate good spelling, punctuation and grammar (fusspot).

I'd like a feature, where after a conversation, the dialogue is stored somewhere for future reference. And maybe also features where you can decide if you want to turn on/off dialogue.
I also find it useful when dialogue that may be useful/gives hints is repeated when you action the same object etc again - but repeating long winded conversations can become annoying too - so maybe a summary dialogue could work better there?

I think thats more than tuppence worth for now....:v2_dizzy_wink2:

[Bag of Magic Food]

Even just things like item descriptions can help - 'a rusty old key' is more atmospheric than 'a key', similarly, 'a sodden towel' is better than 'a wet towel'. More atmospheric, see? item descriptions are food for the players imagination. Of course you can go overboard - 'a large heavy rusting silver key' is just overkill. The trick is to be descriptive and concise at the same time.
Good advice. Using the right adjectives can help get the player started thinking in the right direction. From my own experience playing Dizzy games, I would also advise that you never use the word "magic" to describe an item unless you're going to make it bleedingly obvious what kind of magic it does. You see, calling something "magic" means it doesn't have to follow any rules of physics we know, which means it could do ANYTHING! That's very unhelpful in adventure games where most items are supposed to have only one or two uses out of all the places in a big world.

[Meph]

Yeah like that bag of magic food... we haven't found what to do with it yet.
:v2_dizzy_wink2: